Dino Ying has been a patient leader. As chairman of Hero Esports (formerly VSPO) and Hero Games, he has had to endure a long period of investment before getting much hope of a payoff. Yet Hero Esports is coming into its own with backing from Saudi Arabia, and Hero Games has had a good run as publisher of Game Science‘s hit triple-A action adventure game, Black Myth: Wukong.
In China, Hero Esports has growth to 70% of the market share for esports in China, with big efforts streaming the Esports World Cup. And Black Myth: Wukong managed to sell 20 million units on the PC and PlayStation in just a month starting back in August 2024.
Ying’s patience was inspired by his own study of other sports ecosystems like Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) that also had rough beginnings. Because UFC and other sports became so successful, esports fans have outsized expectations for the growth of esports. Ying has been focusing his investment in addressing the discrepancies between esports reality and fan expectations. One of the things he did was to move from being CEO of Hero Esports to being chairman so he could focus on the promotion of esports on a global stage by helping to turn esports into an Olympic pasttime.
As for Black Myth: Wukong, Ying said he and Game Science’s founders believed that gamers around the world would want to play an epic game based on China’s own mythology. Still, he said the global success of the game succeeded their expectations. The game could have fizzled, as there was a lot of controversy around the culture of the game studio that made the game. But it happened to arrive at a time when many other triple-A games were stalled in development and Chinese players were prepared to embrace a game that they could call their own. Black Myth: Wukong fed China’s desire to assume a role on the world’s video game stage, and it had the gameplay and story to meet players’ expectations.
Ying currently serves as the vice president of the Global Esports Federation and is involved in two task forces for the Olympic Esports Games.
Here’s an edited transcript of our interview.
GamesBeat: How big is Hero Esports in terms of employees, and Game Science as well?
Dino Ying: Hero Esports is about 1,400 people, and Hero Games is about 2,000. Game Science is about 100.
GamesBeat: I wanted to talk about your early years in gaming, starting up Hero Esports and Game Science. Could you start with the beginning of that story?
Ying: I’ve been a lifelong gamer. Hero Games is the publisher of Black Myth: Wukong, as you know. Hero Esports now accounts for 70% of market share in China. We’re growing very quickly with the Esports World Cup and the Saudi investment. We’ve been working on some very interesting and important projects.
The origin story — when I was in high school, my roommates and friends and I all played esports games. Perhaps the inspiration for what I do today has its roots in those moments. At the time, the industry had significant issues, which fueled my desire to make a change.
I saw a lot of problems in the esports industry, and I felt compelled to make some efforts to change that, to address those issues. Esports as an industry was getting to a stage where problems needed to be solved. The way I saw it, there wasn’t enough work being done. There wasn’t enough investment going into the technology side, the infrastructure side of things. I took it upon myself to help build that out. The industry participants, too — their standards weren’t high enough. I felt like there was so much room for improvement. In general, I just wasn’t satisfied with the product. I was a hardcore gamer myself. That player mentality led to the market share we have now.
GamesBeat: Your business has grown to a lot of people. What was the business model you found that enabled it to take off and grow so much?
Ying: Right now it’s about building out infrastructure. We’re in a stage where we’re putting in investment and looking for a way to get the best return. But there’s friction between what esports users want around the quality of tournaments and other product. That’s where the growth momentum stems from, in part. We’re trying to invest and address those discrepancies.
GamesBeat: Esports has had a rocky road. It’s always had a lot of viewers, but revenue has been hard to generate. What gave you the patience to wait for growth to arrive? How did you have faith that this would be successful in the longer term?
Ying: Esports had a hard period of time. It’s been difficult. If you look at the Ultimate Fighting Championship, the beginning of their story is also one of difficulty. Revenue was hard to come by. They had a very rocky road as well. We have the long-term patience for that. We stay focused, so long as we remain the dominant player in this industry–the key part is that fans like our product. So long as we make sure that fans enjoy our product, we’re confident that this will turn around in the long term.
If you look at the key pillars of our business, it’s our tournaments, our commercialization, and our talent. These all make money. That’s a testament to the fact that all the stakeholders enjoy our product. Right now we’re in a critical stage of gaining the love, the passion, and the trust of our fans. That remains the most important thing.
GamesBeat: Did anything in particular lead you to make the transition from CEO to chairman for Hero Esports?
Ying: Right now, esports is entering a critical period of time. It’s going global. For us, discovering more talent is very important. We want more talent to come into the sector. Speaking to the transition from CEO to chairman, Danny Tang was simply the best choice for CEO. She’s very experienced. We want the company to grow globally, internationally, and she’s a fantastic choice for that.
For me, I wanted to spend more time around public sector services. We want to find different angles to promote esports. One of the key things we’re working on, one of the angles relates to global, international organizations. You see the Olympics showing interest, and other organizations. That’s the bigger picture for me. I’m now the vice president of the Global Esports Federation. That’s a testament to my desire to promote esports going global. With the Esports Olympics, I’m a member of the key task force. I’m trying to promote esports on the global stage.
GamesBeat: How did your connection with Game Science happen? What led to your investment in Game Science?
Ying: My partner in crime, Daniel Wu, he was working to discover the best teams in games. Game Science is strong evidence of that. They had a super talented team. From our perspective, we feel fortunate that Black Myth: Wukong came out of this partnership. I’m grateful that I was able to work with a genius game director and designer in Feng Ji (Yocar), and I’m grateful for a team that’s been able to take us on this journey.
GamesBeat: It sold 20 million units in its first month. Do we know where the sales are now?
Ying: That’s a hard question. We know that everyone is curious. We made an announcement when it hit the 10 million milestone in three days. We should be able to update with new information soon.
GamesBeat: Were you surprised to see so much national pride around the game in China, and the support from the government? It seems like it made a big difference, that Chinese people saw this as the first great triple-A game in China and backed it for that reason. I know it was a success globally, but China seems like it was a huge part of the support for the game.
Ying: From our perspective, before the game’s launch, we were confident that gamers around the world wanted to play a game based on Chinese mythology. We’re gamers ourselves. We had that confidence. But when it actually launched, it still exceeded our expectations. Not just in China, but the global success exceeded our expectations. In turn, that emboldened us to want to create a more authentic Chinese experience. We felt like that was the feedback we were getting. We’re more encouraged to bring Chinese mythology to the rest of the world.
I love going to museums. I’ve been to museums all over the world, in many countries. One thing that resonates with me–stories from hundreds or thousands of years ago are still mesmerizing. They can bring you into a whole new experience. In Black Myth: Wukong, the same kind of experience applies. The characters, the architecture, that tells a story that’s apart from time and space. Fans enjoy that. That makes us a lot more confident to keep building on that foundation. We have thousands of years of foundation – architecture, art, stories. Centuries later, fans are still mesmerized by that. We want to bring those experiences to a global audience. We believe in the kind of art that can transcend time and space.
GamesBeat: The studio itself, how would you describe the culture there? How big has Game Science become? There was the IGN story about sexism in that culture. After that came out, how did the studio address that?
Ying: Game Science is a team made up of pure gamers, hardcore gamers. For them games and content have always been the key priority. Their focus has always been on that. They try not to get dragged into distractions, some of the noise that’s out there. Maybe they’re not communicative enough. But for them, they’re hardcore gamers. They want to bring the best games to the market. On that point, I can understand where they’re coming from. They’re focused on gameplay.
GamesBeat: Different people have different views of difficulty in games. From Software, with games like Elden Ring, has a very clear point of view. Was there a deliberate feeling about how difficult Black Myth: Wukong should be? Making it for players who are very skilled versus making it more accessible.
Ying: When Feng Ji designed the game, he took accessibility into consideration. He wanted to make the game as accessible as possible and bring that experience to as many gamers as possible. But also, he wanted to make it fun. As far as the difficulty dial is concerned, Black Myth: Wukong is maybe a little different from, say, the Souls games. Souls games are very difficult. We wanted to address that balance. Based on what we see from the completion rate among gamers, we think we hit a pretty good balance. We’re satisfied with what they’ve accomplished. Souls and Soulslike games have a big fanbase right now, but we wanted to go with a difficulty level that was more moderate. That’s the strategy we followed.
GamesBeat: I read an essay by Matthew Ball about Black Myth: Wukong. The interesting point he made was that he thinks the biggest countries are going to move toward embracing more local content made by local people for local audiences. That seems to be what’s happened with Black Myth: Wukong. Just like in the U.S. and Japan and Europe, the developers are making a game about their own history and their own stories. How do you feel about that?
Ying: Right now we look at the global gaming market, and compared with TV and movies, the wider entertainment market, we believe the gaming market is actually more diverse. As you say, countries right now are making games based on their own cultures. If you look at the U.S. you have GTA. In Europe you have Assassin’s Creed. Japan has things like Pokemon. Korea has PUBG. Black Myth is a product of this time that we’re living in, in regards to Chinese gaming. Gamers all over the world are happy to see that there’s such a diverse range of games on the market.
Playing a game is like going on a journey, like traveling. Gamers are lucky. They get to experience and see the cultures of different places. For them that’s a brand new experience, a rewarding experience. Movies are a little different. The way things are now, one country is a little too big, a little too monolithic when it comes to movies. When you compare that to games, game content is a lot more diverse. It’s more like tourism in some ways. You get to experience a place, visually as well as spiritually.
We’re living in a period of time where there’s an explosion of information. Users can get access to the best products on the market more easily than ever before. Successful products can spread virally very quickly. For companies these days, they should focus on creating the best experience, the best games. We’re no longer in a time where expansion can guarantee results. We’re focused on products, the best products. That’s our insight into the market right now.
Looking at the movie industry, maybe it’s not the same, but we see things playing out in a similar way. IP-driven movies have had a good run, but fatigue sets in among viewers. But we’re seeing, for example, Korean movies building a lot of buzz. We believe that in the coming years, fans want to see more diverse content, independently created content.
GamesBeat: What happens next for Game Science? What kind of strategic questions does the company face? What strategy does it want to pursue?
Ying: In the past six years of our partnership, we’ve experienced firsthand that Feng Ji (Yocar) is a great artist, a genuine artist. We have a great appreciation of that. The whole company’s strategy remains to bring great experiences, great products to as many players as possible. That’s the unwavering commitment. It’s about bringing more fun to more gamers.
GamesBeat: I know a lot of players would like to see an Xbox version.
Ying: It’s on the way.
GamesBeat: Does Hero Games still own 20% of Game Science? I wasn’t sure if the structure of that relationship had changed over time.
Ying: I can’t comment on that.
GamesBeat: Did you learn more about the players of Black Myth: Wukong? Are there more of them globally, or more in China? You talked about completion rates as well. Were players around the world finishing the game in equal measure? Was there anything unique about the different audiences?
Ying: At the highest level, it opens the door for all game companies to see the full power of the Chinese gaming market. A lot of people bought new GPUs or new PlayStations. That’s great news for gamers and for game companies alike. It’s a moment for celebration.
For gamers Black Myth: Wukong represents a unique experience, a chance to experience a whole new world that hasn’t been created before. For companies, it unveiled an opportunity in the market. The advent of Black Myth: Wukong, we believe, nudged companies to focus more on China, to study China more.
GamesBeat: On the esports side, the Saudis invested in your company. I went to the Esports World Cup this year and it was very exciting. How do you feel about the future of esports? Are there particular paths to greater success that you see for esports? In some ways it still feels like there’s a long road to reach some of the goals people have for esports. What’s the best way to get there?
Ying: Patience. Esports represents the latest form of sports. We have conviction about that. There’s a big user base. We have conviction that it’s all going to grow. Patience is key. We believe that it’s better to do the right thing that’s more difficult, rather than looking for a shortcut. That will get us to our destination sooner. Similar to the experience of publishing Black Myth: Wukong, we know we’re on the right track. Sometimes it’s better to say less and just focus on doing what we can do best. That’s the conviction that carries us.
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